Gentlemen of the Dojo, I have some words regarding the game tonight.
In the event I get contacted illegally, I have the right to call a foul. In the game tonight, I called 3 fouls, and there can be no doubt that they were all illegal contact: I got clobbered in the head twice, and landed on once (I have a right to my vertical space).
Whether they affected the outcome of the play or not, they are still fouls. In the event that they didn't affect the outcome, I have the chance to recover from being fouled, but will withdraw my call. In no way should our team be at the disadvantage of playing with 6 players just because I get hit in the head.
In the event that fouls cancel such as with Pete, or you feel that I wouldn't have got the disc regardless you can contest the call.
In the event that I threw the disc and was contacted from behind in the event, I'm not sure how much it affected my throw. I called a foul because regardless of results it was a foul. I had a chance to consider my decision, and decided that it had an effect on the play.
In none of these times, was it helpful to have 9 players yelling while I was discussing the play. You have a responsibility as referees of this sport to show respect to your fellow players. While undoubtedly I will get fired up in situations where I am fouled, I appreciate the chance to stop play and discuss with the players involved how the play occurred. I did not make any spurious calls. All three were undoubtedly illegal contact and fouls, but all had different results.
Take that as you will. Andy will probably think I'm being arrogant.
Fair enough Gref, things would be much less heated if the fouls were called and discussed in a less heated way.
Also with respect to owning that space, sure, but everyone else has right to their space aswell. I had first play at that disc being closer to it with no one in front of me(it was coming from the right and i was on the right), sure there was contact in there and if you are hit in the head then you can call a foul (I know I would), but since we were both coming to the exact same point to catch the disc that is the exact definition of incidental contact, and hence not a foul (can't say what happened behind you in terms of being pushed or anything). In the end it was retracted and I'm sorry for swearing, but when you call a foul with that tone of voice it's an instinct to retaliate with the same tone when you haven't done anything illegal. You won't hear me do it very often as I'm usually pretty calm but every now and again as with almost everyone I'll get a bit riled up.
The second foul, again, you have right to vertical space, but when about 8 people are standing ready to jump, then attempting to jump into that crowd of people (I was in there myself because I had been standing in the position for more than half the flight time of the throw but couldn't jump because of people holding me down) you forfeit any rights you had by violating their space. Which is exactly what happened. You didn't get to the space first you had ample opportunity to pull out of the jump as people were there before you started it. In this situation it would have been good to discuss it but we weren't given the opportunity with so many people whinging. And this is where I agree that the people directly involved in the play should be given the opportunity to discuss without everyone else yelling.
In summary, all three fouls were contacts and you can call foul but saying they were illegal contacts caused by other people is not true at all. 1 out of three of them were illegal contacts, the other 2 involved an incidental contact between 2 people contesting the same space that neither occupied and one where you jumped into a crowd of more than half the players on the field which in itself is a foul.
I think we are all missing the best part of the game last night, and that was probably the lay out grab gref took in the endzone.
Interesting, Pete's comment on Gref's tone. There is much more to action and reaction (a referee's decision in other sports) than an understanding and interpretation of the rules.
Perhaps (most likely) the reputation of a player and the way they play the game comes into it.
Here's a positive example, which should be upheld as the essence of spirit.
Slamtown vs Heroes, I cut from the middle of the endzone to the back corner but notice my teammate running through to receive the disc, so I pull up. Kevin from SFC runs into my back and calls a pick.
This is within his right and I can't call contested, but I said "I don't think it made a difference". He said that it did. Nothing I could do.
Jangles, who was watching from a dump position, said that he thought Kevin didn't have a bid on the disc, so Kevin said "If YOU say that, Jangles, I will retract because you (had best perspective and) always play the game in the best spirit".
Jangles reputation for good spirit influenced Kevin's spirit (a good score was given) to the extent that he retracted a call to give us a point when the game was tight.
Note that no one was yelling "Oh FFS Kevin, come on there's no way you had bid on that".. probably made a difference too.
13 comments:
Dojo, Buggers, Cobras.
Dojo, Buggers, Heroes.
Dojo, Slamtown, Cobras
Lovers, Buggers, Cobra's
There are definitely going to be some big battles tonight.
Lovers Buggers Cobras
Lovers, Slamtown, Cobras
Gentlemen of the Dojo,
I have some words regarding the game tonight.
In the event I get contacted illegally, I have the right to call a foul. In the game tonight, I called 3 fouls, and there can be no doubt that they were all illegal contact: I got clobbered in the head twice, and landed on once (I have a right to my vertical space).
Whether they affected the outcome of the play or not, they are still fouls. In the event that they didn't affect the outcome, I have the chance to recover from being fouled, but will withdraw my call. In no way should our team be at the disadvantage of playing with 6 players just because I get hit in the head.
In the event that fouls cancel such as with Pete, or you feel that I wouldn't have got the disc regardless you can contest the call.
In the event that I threw the disc and was contacted from behind in the event, I'm not sure how much it affected my throw. I called a foul because regardless of results it was a foul. I had a chance to consider my decision, and decided that it had an effect on the play.
In none of these times, was it helpful to have 9 players yelling while I was discussing the play. You have a responsibility as referees of this sport to show respect to your fellow players. While undoubtedly I will get fired up in situations where I am fouled, I appreciate the chance to stop play and discuss with the players involved how the play occurred. I did not make any spurious calls. All three were undoubtedly illegal contact and fouls, but all had different results.
Take that as you will. Andy will probably think I'm being arrogant.
Wow, I really hope Dojo post some video of that match!
That contest in the endzone with Pete and Fatty was a very suspicious call Gref.
It did not look like a foul to me.
Mike
Wrt to the call Mike's commented on
From my perspective there was definitely contact.
Would gref have caught the disc?
Prolly not from where he was when the contact happened..
Outcome?
Foul retracted..
Fair enough Gref, things would be much less heated if the fouls were called and discussed in a less heated way.
Also with respect to owning that space, sure, but everyone else has right to their space aswell. I had first play at that disc being closer to it with no one in front of me(it was coming from the right and i was on the right), sure there was contact in there and if you are hit in the head then you can call a foul (I know I would), but since we were both coming to the exact same point to catch the disc that is the exact definition of incidental contact, and hence not a foul (can't say what happened behind you in terms of being pushed or anything). In the end it was retracted and I'm sorry for swearing, but when you call a foul with that tone of voice it's an instinct to retaliate with the same tone when you haven't done anything illegal. You won't hear me do it very often as I'm usually pretty calm but every now and again as with almost everyone I'll get a bit riled up.
The second foul, again, you have right to vertical space, but when about 8 people are standing ready to jump, then attempting to jump into that crowd of people (I was in there myself because I had been standing in the position for more than half the flight time of the throw but couldn't jump because of people holding me down) you forfeit any rights you had by violating their space. Which is exactly what happened. You didn't get to the space first you had ample opportunity to pull out of the jump as people were there before you started it. In this situation it would have been good to discuss it but we weren't given the opportunity with so many people whinging. And this is where I agree that the people directly involved in the play should be given the opportunity to discuss without everyone else yelling.
In summary, all three fouls were contacts and you can call foul but saying they were illegal contacts caused by other people is not true at all. 1 out of three of them were illegal contacts, the other 2 involved an incidental contact between 2 people contesting the same space that neither occupied and one where you jumped into a crowd of more than half the players on the field which in itself is a foul.
I think we are all missing the best part of the game last night, and that was probably the lay out grab gref took in the endzone.
Interesting, Pete's comment on Gref's tone. There is much more to action and reaction (a referee's decision in other sports) than an understanding and interpretation of the rules.
Perhaps (most likely) the reputation of a player and the way they play the game comes into it.
Here's a positive example, which should be upheld as the essence of spirit.
Slamtown vs Heroes, I cut from the middle of the endzone to the back corner but notice my teammate running through to receive the disc, so I pull up. Kevin from SFC runs into my back and calls a pick.
This is within his right and I can't call contested, but I said "I don't think it made a difference". He said that it did. Nothing I could do.
Jangles, who was watching from a dump position, said that he thought Kevin didn't have a bid on the disc, so Kevin said "If YOU say that, Jangles, I will retract because you (had best perspective and) always play the game in the best spirit".
Jangles reputation for good spirit influenced Kevin's spirit (a good score was given) to the extent that he retracted a call to give us a point when the game was tight.
Note that no one was yelling "Oh FFS Kevin, come on there's no way you had bid on that".. probably made a difference too.
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