WFDF is surveying folks who attended recent international events in Prague, Florence and Heilbronn to get feedback to improve future events etc etc.
If you were lucky enough to get over there, then head over here and offer your thoughts. Even if you're a bit critical, remember to say thanks! http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/HN8ZWLY
Showing posts with label wfdf. Show all posts
Showing posts with label wfdf. Show all posts
Wednesday, October 13, 2010
Tuesday, September 28, 2010
Over the Wire
Follow all the action at the Australian University Games in Perth via Forcesideline (they're doing such a good job, we're not going near it, aside from saying go UQ and QUT!) Div 1 and Div 2
Today is the last day you can order Mixed Nationals 2010 clothing.
WFDF have posted the minutes of its 2010 congress, for those who like to keep an eye on what Pottsy and friends are up to.
Following yesterday's announcement, Black Betty have posted updates to their website.
Today is the last day you can order Mixed Nationals 2010 clothing.
WFDF have posted the minutes of its 2010 congress, for those who like to keep an eye on what Pottsy and friends are up to.
Following yesterday's announcement, Black Betty have posted updates to their website.
Monday, September 06, 2010
Operation Global View
The President of the World (aka the WFDF El Supremo that some of us know as 'Pottsy' or 'that naked guy that isn't Piers') has posted his 2010 annual report on ye internets, for your consideration.
Wednesday, September 01, 2010
WFDF Bi-Annual Rules Review
WFDF has begun it's biannual review the rules of Ultimate, and invite anyone to contribute.
There's a place to make suggestions and discuss the suggestions of others, over here:http://ultimaterules.co.cc/?page_id=1277&vasthtmlaction=viewforum&f=2.0
Personally, while I like having a regular process to review the rules (rather than something 'crisis' driven. And goo don WFDF and those involved for committing and delivering on making it happen), I'm not so keen on every two years.
Every two years is driven by the international playing schedule, and this is probably right for people playing Ultimate at that level.
But for the vast majority of players and organisers, changes every two years is probably too often.
Don't have a solution though, except possibly that while its worth having a discussion every two years, the bias should be towards not changing anything if at all possible, or possibly deferring the introduction of minor changes until the next review (ie to have major updates every four years).
There's a place to make suggestions and discuss the suggestions of others, over here:http://ultimaterules.co.cc/?page_id=1277&vasthtmlaction=viewforum&f=2.0
Personally, while I like having a regular process to review the rules (rather than something 'crisis' driven. And goo don WFDF and those involved for committing and delivering on making it happen), I'm not so keen on every two years.
Every two years is driven by the international playing schedule, and this is probably right for people playing Ultimate at that level.
But for the vast majority of players and organisers, changes every two years is probably too often.
Don't have a solution though, except possibly that while its worth having a discussion every two years, the bias should be towards not changing anything if at all possible, or possibly deferring the introduction of minor changes until the next review (ie to have major updates every four years).
Wednesday, May 12, 2010
And One Rule to Ring Them
It is fantastic that both the AFDA and WFDF have recently made announcements about activities to improve the rule knowledge of players.
All Ultimate players are referees.
Imagine if you were watching some other sport, and the referee didn't know the rules or got them wrong. There'd be a furor!
AFDA have recently appointed a National Rules Officer, the wonderful Jo Creswell, who's role is to promote rule knowledge amongst players. AFDA also hosted a Rules Forum at Nationals 2010 in Adelaide, which led to lively discussion. Check out Jo's introductory post.
Meanwhile, our own Rueben Berg, the very busy Chair of the WFDF Ultimate Rules Committee, recently launched the WFDF Rules Website. Go and have a look.
Is there someone reading this who'd nominate themselves or someone else as the BUDA or even just BPL Rules Promotion Officer? We here at the stately mansion would love to see a weekly email highlighting some rule or other, either drawn from AFDA and WFDF's work, or in response to a local query along the lines of "in a game at League the other night ..." We would faithfully reproduce your emails here on the Brisbane Ultimate Blog!
And some philosophy for you - the best way to understand the rules is to ask questions about them. To paraphrase Professor Sumner-Miller, to ask "Why is (this rule) so?" is the best way to learn and be able to explain to others.
Explaining a rule your own way, and hearing a rule explained differently by different people, helps you to grasp the platonic concept of the rule. So in the case of "what happens if the disc is thrown after a pick is called", my answer is "The moment when someone calls 'pick', play officially stops. Someone saying "Pick" is the same as a referee blowing a whistle in other sports. Anything that happens after that is irrelevant. The grief we have is that not everyone hears the call, and sometimes throws are thrown. Maybe we should all have whistles? But that doesn't change the fact that play has stopped."
All Ultimate players are referees.
Imagine if you were watching some other sport, and the referee didn't know the rules or got them wrong. There'd be a furor!
AFDA have recently appointed a National Rules Officer, the wonderful Jo Creswell, who's role is to promote rule knowledge amongst players. AFDA also hosted a Rules Forum at Nationals 2010 in Adelaide, which led to lively discussion. Check out Jo's introductory post.
Meanwhile, our own Rueben Berg, the very busy Chair of the WFDF Ultimate Rules Committee, recently launched the WFDF Rules Website. Go and have a look.
Is there someone reading this who'd nominate themselves or someone else as the BUDA or even just BPL Rules Promotion Officer? We here at the stately mansion would love to see a weekly email highlighting some rule or other, either drawn from AFDA and WFDF's work, or in response to a local query along the lines of "in a game at League the other night ..." We would faithfully reproduce your emails here on the Brisbane Ultimate Blog!
And some philosophy for you - the best way to understand the rules is to ask questions about them. To paraphrase Professor Sumner-Miller, to ask "Why is (this rule) so?" is the best way to learn and be able to explain to others.
Explaining a rule your own way, and hearing a rule explained differently by different people, helps you to grasp the platonic concept of the rule. So in the case of "what happens if the disc is thrown after a pick is called", my answer is "The moment when someone calls 'pick', play officially stops. Someone saying "Pick" is the same as a referee blowing a whistle in other sports. Anything that happens after that is irrelevant. The grief we have is that not everyone hears the call, and sometimes throws are thrown. Maybe we should all have whistles? But that doesn't change the fact that play has stopped."
Friday, February 19, 2010
Important Overlooked Statistic
There's been a lot of chat over the years about whether Ultimate is good or bad at keeping statistics, records, results and its general history.
We here at the Brisbane Ultimate Blog try to do our little bit, but we're also aware that one day Blogger will go the way of geocities. Ah well.
But anyway, one of our spies noted an interesting statistic in the report on the 2009 WFDF Asia Oceania Ultimate Club Championships. Bear in mind these are the OFFICIAL results and all.
Have a look.
Go right down.
Keep going.
Yep.
Australia may not have done as well as it might have liked on the fields, but our own Jonathan Potts is the official 2009 WFDF Asia Oceania Ultimate Club Championships Saturday Party Best Male Costume Wearer, for his effort as "Undead Hooker".
Well done Pottsy. Can someone link us to a photo?
Undead hooker ... might be a good name for my next hat team ....
We here at the Brisbane Ultimate Blog try to do our little bit, but we're also aware that one day Blogger will go the way of geocities. Ah well.
But anyway, one of our spies noted an interesting statistic in the report on the 2009 WFDF Asia Oceania Ultimate Club Championships. Bear in mind these are the OFFICIAL results and all.
Have a look.
Go right down.
Keep going.
Yep.
Australia may not have done as well as it might have liked on the fields, but our own Jonathan Potts is the official 2009 WFDF Asia Oceania Ultimate Club Championships Saturday Party Best Male Costume Wearer, for his effort as "Undead Hooker".
Well done Pottsy. Can someone link us to a photo?
Undead hooker ... might be a good name for my next hat team ....
Monday, November 02, 2009
You'll Never Win a Rules Argument with Matt Eastburn Again*
Good news everybody!
You'll** never need to have an argument over the rules of Ultimate with Matt Eastburn ever again.
Many folks will know that Matt was the first member of the Brisbane Ultimate community to get himself an iPhone.
Well, thanks to the outstanding effort of a Mr Claudius Kirsch from Germany*** , WFDF were recently excited to announce that there's now a free iPhone application that puts the official WFDF Rules of Ultimate into your electronic pocket (in both English and German).
You'll** never need to have an argument over the rules of Ultimate with Matt Eastburn ever again.
Many folks will know that Matt was the first member of the Brisbane Ultimate community to get himself an iPhone.
Well, thanks to the outstanding effort of a Mr Claudius Kirsch from Germany*** , WFDF were recently excited to announce that there's now a free iPhone application that puts the official WFDF Rules of Ultimate into your electronic pocket (in both English and German).
Leaving aside the silliness of giving Matt a bag, this is very useful. Something to consult when you need to know the rules or at least correct someone else. Something to read when you're bored on the train or waiting for your gal to give birth.
Perhaps a future iteraction could have a search capacity? Sometimes the table of contents doesn't tell you everything. And why not take full advantage of having an electronic rather than paper copy?
*Not that you ever did. **maybe ***just another reason for the Dojo to be relying on such technology. Germany is an awesome country.
Thursday, October 29, 2009
WFDF Releases New Spirit of the Game Scoring System
We here at the Brisbane Ultimate Blog take Spirit and Spirit scoring reasonably seriously (although it seems we're usually the one's suggesting not stressing the numbers too much.
But there's plenty of folks who think that there must be some objective way to take the subjectivity out of something that's somewhat subjective anyway (make sense).
So WFDF have released a fancy new system for scoring spirit, and well done them. Press release here gives a nice summary. And here's the scoring sheet itself (looks a little Dungeon and Dragony to us!)
Worth checking out.
But there's plenty of folks who think that there must be some objective way to take the subjectivity out of something that's somewhat subjective anyway (make sense).
So WFDF have released a fancy new system for scoring spirit, and well done them. Press release here gives a nice summary. And here's the scoring sheet itself (looks a little Dungeon and Dragony to us!)
Worth checking out.
Friday, October 23, 2009
Travelling around the world
One of the rules that was brought in with the 2009 WFDF Rules changes was the change to the travel rule to enhance the fast movement of Ultimate games. We noticed that in a few league games and local tournaments lately this new rule is not known by players or is being incorrectly implemented. Basically, there are now 3 different types of travels, that we will briefly summarise below:
- Uncontested travel, disc has NOT been thrown by traveller.
- Contested travel, disc has NOT been thrown by traveller.
- Uncontested or contested travel, disc HAS been thrown by traveller.
Uncontested travel, disc not thrown
This is the main change to the rule that was brought in. Basically, this new part of the rule states that the stall count pauses after the call, the traveller comes back to the point they should have been at, then the stall count resumes and the thrower may throw the disc. Play downfield does not stop at all. In the words of WFDF:
Contested travel, disc not thrown
This situation did not arise very often under the old rules, as there was no benefit or change in situation if a travel was contested. Under the new rules, if a travel is contest and the disc has not been thrown, play stops as per the old rules, the situation is discussed (although any discussion will not change the situation), the disc is checked in and play resumes. In the words of WFDF:
Any kind of travel, disc thrown
This rule has not changed from the old rules. If a travel is called and a throw is made and completed, the disc returns to the thrower. If a travel is called, a throw is made and a turnover happens, the turnover stands and play continues. In the words of WFDF:
Hopefully that has cleared things up and we can all be more informed and make better calls with the wonderful call that is "Travel".
- Uncontested travel, disc has NOT been thrown by traveller.
- Contested travel, disc has NOT been thrown by traveller.
- Uncontested or contested travel, disc HAS been thrown by traveller.
Uncontested travel, disc not thrown
This is the main change to the rule that was brought in. Basically, this new part of the rule states that the stall count pauses after the call, the traveller comes back to the point they should have been at, then the stall count resumes and the thrower may throw the disc. Play downfield does not stop at all. In the words of WFDF:
18.2.7 After an uncontested travel infraction, play does not stop:18.2.7.1 The thrower establishes a pivot at the correct spot, as indicated by the player who called the travel. This must occur without delay from either player involved.
18.2.7.2 Any stall count is paused, and the thrower may not throw the disc, until the pivot is established at the correct spot.
18.2.7.3 A defensive player should call "Play on" as soon as the pivot has been established.
18.2.7.4 The marker must say "Stalling" or "Play on" before restarting the stall count.
Contested travel, disc not thrown
This situation did not arise very often under the old rules, as there was no benefit or change in situation if a travel was contested. Under the new rules, if a travel is contest and the disc has not been thrown, play stops as per the old rules, the situation is discussed (although any discussion will not change the situation), the disc is checked in and play resumes. In the words of WFDF:
18.2.10 After a contested travel infraction where the thrower has not released the disc, play stops.
Any kind of travel, disc thrown
This rule has not changed from the old rules. If a travel is called and a throw is made and completed, the disc returns to the thrower. If a travel is called, a throw is made and a turnover happens, the turnover stands and play continues. In the words of WFDF:
18.2.8 If, after a travel infraction but before correcting the pivot, the thrower throws a completed pass, the defensive team may call "Violation". Play stops and the disc is returned to the thrower.
18.2.9 If, after a travel infraction, the thrower throws an incomplete pass, play shall continue.
Hopefully that has cleared things up and we can all be more informed and make better calls with the wonderful call that is "Travel".
Monday, August 31, 2009
Nothing Quite Worth a Full Post
- Blogger is being a bit painful at the moment, so apologies for the slow posting.
- But many of you will see the return of the "recent comments" feature over there on the right. Let's see how long that hack works. But in the past, it has certainly made people more aware of the comments added to various posts.
[edit]- Its sad that the US has decided against sending a team to the World u23 Championships. Yes, the u23's have been pulled together quickly, but I'm sure many will see the US not attending as a great embuggerance and disappointment. It IS a challenge for a nation as large as the US to pull together a team in the timeframe, but I don't think anyone would view it as an insurmountable one. It just seems to come across as "if we can't put a full effort in, we won't be coming half-arsed". And more annoying, when Australia goes and wins Gold ;), the clowns on rec.sport.disc will be rambling on about asterisks (as they did following WUCC2006), without realising that being the best in the world isn't just about on field performances, but all the fundraising and organisational effort and commitment that it takes to get there too. This one's still going folks.[/edit]
- We hope everyone heard Dr Chris Burwell (aka Buzz), who seems to be ABC radio's latest celebrity scientist, at least going on his long segment last Wednesday (which alas has not been posted on the web).
- JdR's old team in London, the Flaming Galahs, recently won a big final, and some dude got keen and posted the highlights on Youtube. Keep an eye out for Dan Berry (shortish rednut with silly grin) - JdR taught him everything he knew.
- We haven't yet mentioned the delightfully named Delirium team that will be representing Queensland, and indeed, the free world, at Mixed Nats in Hobart in October. Follow the link to love the Handfish, and slap the backs of those skilled enough to be selected:
- But many of you will see the return of the "recent comments" feature over there on the right. Let's see how long that hack works. But in the past, it has certainly made people more aware of the comments added to various posts.
[edit]
- We hope everyone heard Dr Chris Burwell (aka Buzz), who seems to be ABC radio's latest celebrity scientist, at least going on his long segment last Wednesday (which alas has not been posted on the web).
- JdR's old team in London, the Flaming Galahs, recently won a big final, and some dude got keen and posted the highlights on Youtube. Keep an eye out for Dan Berry (shortish rednut with silly grin) - JdR taught him everything he knew.
- We haven't yet mentioned the delightfully named Delirium team that will be representing Queensland, and indeed, the free world, at Mixed Nats in Hobart in October. Follow the link to love the Handfish, and slap the backs of those skilled enough to be selected:
Suze, Maylin, Megs, Notty, Laura, Jen C, Steph, Stu, Dusty, Jimmy, Andy L, Dan Blacklock, Hugh of Townsville, Jo-el VW (Canadian), George S and big bad Stef 'knee permitting' Rappazzo
- And because he's great and we don't post as many pictures as we should, here is Dan with a small child.
- And because he's great and we don't post as many pictures as we should, here is Dan with a small child.
Tuesday, August 11, 2009
Put Your Hand in the Hand of the Man Who Hucked the Frisbee
I think this is fantastic.
We have all grappled with not knowing what is going on when there's a call and a discussion that happens out of earshot.
Many have had the idea of using hand signals and such. But it has taken the sheer grit, gumption, intellect and general good looks of Rueben Berg to bring this not only to fruition, but to have them endorsed by the world-wide governing body WFDF.
This kind of stuff is also going to help those times when not everyone on the field is fluent in Ye Ulti-English, which is surprisingly often when playing both internationally and even at home against sub-human meatheads like the.
For a start, lets hope everyone in the BPL has a look at these, and starts to use them. Maybe we can even laminate a copy of this on the back of the scoreboards (Janlges?)
Check them out and start memorising here.
We have all grappled with not knowing what is going on when there's a call and a discussion that happens out of earshot.
Many have had the idea of using hand signals and such. But it has taken the sheer grit, gumption, intellect and general good looks of Rueben Berg to bring this not only to fruition, but to have them endorsed by the world-wide governing body WFDF.
This kind of stuff is also going to help those times when not everyone on the field is fluent in Ye Ulti-English, which is surprisingly often when playing both internationally and even at home against sub-human meatheads like the
For a start, lets hope everyone in the BPL has a look at these, and starts to use them. Maybe we can even laminate a copy of this on the back of the scoreboards (Janlges?)
Check them out and start memorising here.
Monday, March 23, 2009
BPL Experimental Rules
Maintaining its status as the premier Open Ultimate League in the country, the Brisbane Premier League has been invited by no less than one of the key members of the WFDF Rules Committee to trial an experimental pick rule for the remainder of this season, and head honcho Stu has made the call and agreed to testing it out.
The experimental rule is:
"After a pick is called, play continues.
If the defender catches up to the player they were covering they should call "play on" and the pick is nullified.
If the player they were covering catches the disc before the defender can make up the ground, then play stops and the disc is returned to the thrower.
If an incomplete pass is thrown, the turnover stands and play continues."
Don't forget, BPL is now being played under the 2009 WFDF Rules (call us early-adopters). Make sure you're familiar before you get on the field this week.
The experimental rule is:
"After a pick is called, play continues.
If the defender catches up to the player they were covering they should call "play on" and the pick is nullified.
If the player they were covering catches the disc before the defender can make up the ground, then play stops and the disc is returned to the thrower.
If an incomplete pass is thrown, the turnover stands and play continues."
Don't forget, BPL is now being played under the 2009 WFDF Rules (call us early-adopters). Make sure you're familiar before you get on the field this week.
Tuesday, December 23, 2008
Top 10 of 2008 Part 1
So as some of you might have noticed, things are a little quiet at stately Brisbane Ultimate Blog mansion. Sure, Master Wetnose has taken up residence in the hammock on the porch that overlooks the Dojo gardens, but other than that its only the sound of crickets chirping, as I have travelled north, north, north, north to our snowbound fortress of solitude in the lovely nation of Canada.
Being amongst this quiet and peaceful folk during their frickin' freezin' Christmas festival season has given me the chance to reflect on both the fickle nature of fate and of course the year that has gone by on the Ultimate scene.
So here's part 1 of the Top 10 most interesting things that happened in 2008 that we barely otherwise covered here at the Brisbane Ultimate Blog.
10. Rob and Molly join the QUDA Executive
The Queensland Ultimate Disc Association has had a big year, but once again it seemed that it was the same (awesome) faces doing all the work. So a big mightly "ROCK!" to Rob and Molly for realising its not such a big thing at all to take on a position and do so.
9. The Tim Booth Incident
You'll want to check out http://groups.yahoo.com/group/aus-ultimate/message/3547 if you haven't been following this one. This one's kind of hard to write about, because its so un-Ultimatey. "A guy attacks another guy off-field at a tournament" isn't something that Ultimate people are prepared for, but I guess its the sort of thing some Ulti-organisers have been having nightmares about happening sooner or later. Fortunately AFDA had a lot of stuff in place and their review will make things clearer in the future. Still, won't be forgotten for a while.
8. Australia Solid if Unspectactular at Worlds
Australian expectations were high going into the World Championships in Vancouver in August. Woirlds 2004 had been the break-through event in many respects, and the Silver at the 2005 World Games led many to put us in the top three internationally. World Clubs in Perth had vastly expanded the number of Aussies with experience against the best of the rest, and preparations for 2008 had been long in the planning and sharp in the execution.
So aside from the outstanding performance by the Junior Women to take their Silver, what happened to the rest? The analysis and introspection seems to be ongoing, but the loss of a couple of crucial games, plus the rest of the world catching up (Japan, GB) since 2004, and here we are.
7. Fyshwick United Start the New Wave?
The Club scene around Australia over the last few years seems to been dominated by groups that got their current shapes and forms through the adventures leading up to World Clubs 2006. And of course, when you look through the lists of top teams you'll see they generally seem to come from Sydney and Melbourne.
So it was great to see Fyshwick United of Canberra make a huge mark in 2008, not just on the field in winning NZ Nationals and taking it to the star-studded Fakulti in the Final at Nationals, but in the off-field planning and all-round good vibes. Maybe in a few years' time we'll look back on this moment and be able to say "we were there".
6. Liam 'Wetnose' Gillions Moves into Stately Brisbane Ultimate Blog Mansion
Probably the 'back room' highlight of the year for us here at Stately BUB Mansion was the addition of a comrade, one who could dig deep at the front line of Brisbane Ultimate, and particularly the Brisbane Premier League. It seems all the great blogs of the world these days are a team effort, and its clear our readers like it best when we post often. Hopefully in 2009 we'll be able to recruit a few more people to fill the spare rooms. And thanks for all your work, Wet!
Being amongst this quiet and peaceful folk during their frickin' freezin' Christmas festival season has given me the chance to reflect on both the fickle nature of fate and of course the year that has gone by on the Ultimate scene.
So here's part 1 of the Top 10 most interesting things that happened in 2008 that we barely otherwise covered here at the Brisbane Ultimate Blog.
10. Rob and Molly join the QUDA Executive
The Queensland Ultimate Disc Association has had a big year, but once again it seemed that it was the same (awesome) faces doing all the work. So a big mightly "ROCK!" to Rob and Molly for realising its not such a big thing at all to take on a position and do so.
9. The Tim Booth Incident
You'll want to check out http://groups.yahoo.com/group/aus-ultimate/message/3547 if you haven't been following this one. This one's kind of hard to write about, because its so un-Ultimatey. "A guy attacks another guy off-field at a tournament" isn't something that Ultimate people are prepared for, but I guess its the sort of thing some Ulti-organisers have been having nightmares about happening sooner or later. Fortunately AFDA had a lot of stuff in place and their review will make things clearer in the future. Still, won't be forgotten for a while.
8. Australia Solid if Unspectactular at Worlds
Australian expectations were high going into the World Championships in Vancouver in August. Woirlds 2004 had been the break-through event in many respects, and the Silver at the 2005 World Games led many to put us in the top three internationally. World Clubs in Perth had vastly expanded the number of Aussies with experience against the best of the rest, and preparations for 2008 had been long in the planning and sharp in the execution.
So aside from the outstanding performance by the Junior Women to take their Silver, what happened to the rest? The analysis and introspection seems to be ongoing, but the loss of a couple of crucial games, plus the rest of the world catching up (Japan, GB) since 2004, and here we are.
7. Fyshwick United Start the New Wave?
The Club scene around Australia over the last few years seems to been dominated by groups that got their current shapes and forms through the adventures leading up to World Clubs 2006. And of course, when you look through the lists of top teams you'll see they generally seem to come from Sydney and Melbourne.
So it was great to see Fyshwick United of Canberra make a huge mark in 2008, not just on the field in winning NZ Nationals and taking it to the star-studded Fakulti in the Final at Nationals, but in the off-field planning and all-round good vibes. Maybe in a few years' time we'll look back on this moment and be able to say "we were there".
6. Liam 'Wetnose' Gillions Moves into Stately Brisbane Ultimate Blog Mansion
Probably the 'back room' highlight of the year for us here at Stately BUB Mansion was the addition of a comrade, one who could dig deep at the front line of Brisbane Ultimate, and particularly the Brisbane Premier League. It seems all the great blogs of the world these days are a team effort, and its clear our readers like it best when we post often. Hopefully in 2009 we'll be able to recruit a few more people to fill the spare rooms. And thanks for all your work, Wet!
Tune in tomorrow (weather permitting) when we go into the Top 5.
Monday, September 15, 2008
WFDF's New Bylaws
For anyone who's interested in international politics, playing international Ultimate, or in at the international end of Ultimate administration, its worth familiarising yourself with WFDF's revised bylaws (effectively its Constitution).
It's not uncommon to see people being unclear on this kind of stuff.
Its also worth noting that the people involved in WFDF are some amazing volunteers, putting in a very large amount of time and effort for very little response that isn't typically ignorant or irritated.
It's not uncommon to see people being unclear on this kind of stuff.
Its also worth noting that the people involved in WFDF are some amazing volunteers, putting in a very large amount of time and effort for very little response that isn't typically ignorant or irritated.
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