No time again for the fancy stuff, here's the news from League HQ.
Round 1 Results
Moreton Bay Buggers 15 defeated Dojo Mojo 0 (forfeit)
Cobras 15 defeated Slamtown Flatball Club 9
UQ Ultimate Lovers 15 defeated Heroes 6
Competition Ladder after Round 1
1. Moreton Bay Buggers - 3pts (+15)
2. UQ Ultimate Lovers - 3pts (+9)
3. Cobras - 3pts (+6)
4. Slamtown Flatball Club - 1pt (-6)
5. Heroes - 1pt (-9)
6. Dojo Mojo - 0pts (-15)
Spirit Table after Round 1
1. Heroes - 8/10
1. Slamtown Flatball Club - 8/10
1. UQ Ultimate Lovers - 8/10
1. Moreton Bay Buggers - 8/10
5. Cobras - 6.5/10
6. Dojo Mojo - 2/10
Round 2 Draw
Field 1 - UQ Ultimate Lovers v Slamtown Flatball Club
Field 2 - Dojo Mojo v Heroes
Field 3 - Cobras v Moreton Bay Buggers
22 comments:
Was there a game between Dojo and Bugs? If not, it's fair that Dojo go -15 GD, but should the Bugs get +15? I'm not so sure. I think they should just get the 3 points.
Curious, How does a team get +2 for spirit when they forfeited?
We had a discussion about that afterwards, when it comes down to it, the opposing captain can give whatever they wish. And because the 5 of us who were there were friendly/sorry and still played a game with them they decided to give us 2 which was nice.
@dstrel - I guess it re-enforces & encourages teams not to give the forfeit because of the league ratifications that come from it. What has it been in recent years?
Dan,
A lot of times the difference in positions at the end of the league can come down to GD. Giving the 'winning' team 0 GD from that game would seem harsh against them.
I've thought about it before as well but I still don't know of an arbitrary GD that you can give to the 'winning' team that would be more applicable?
I guess while we're on it ...
It's not detailed in the official BPL rules, but I'd assume BPL would follow the common practice (its in the AFDA Events Manual also, which I think draws on WFDF and/or UPA) that if two teams finished on equal points at the end of the season, then countback (ie the results from when those two teams played each other) would be used to rank the teams, before season-long goal differences would?
(See Tiebreakers at: http://www.afda.com/resources/AFDA%20Tournament%20Formats%20Manual%20v5.doc
Its fair that there's a 15-0 difference between the Buggers and Dojo, but this should influence other teams.
should = shouldn't at the end of the comment above *sigh*
Is it in the official BPL rules to show the spirit scores each week? Could influence captains scores if they are going to be made public.
Andy Mc
Stephen C has been campaigning for a while now to make spirit scores open, so publishing them each week has been added into the rules for this season.
Will be interesting to see if it changes peoples spirit scoring or attitude.
I also heard that Stephen C has been campaigning for a while to get his team to show up...
I HEARD THEY SHAVED A GORILLA
Funny stuff Julz. Sadly even our new guy Andres (who I still haven't met - Andres if you're out there drop me a line) didn't turn up either...
Anyway this bullshit 2 spirit score business is just another thing that you can only laugh about in the BPL. I mean seriously, so I need to point out yet again that there is no guide for captains on how to score spirit? There were 14 comments on this post from last season on the Dojo blog:
http://dojomojo-ultimate.blogspot.com/2010/03/smells-like-bad-spirit.html
Anyway, Mike tells me that there isn't any guide for spirit scoring at the World championships either. Somehow I doubt they have to take forfeits into account very often though...
Last time I looked we had at least some sort of gentlemen's agreement that Spirit would be scored on an 8 +- 2 basis, which is why I gave Bugs 8. They didn't do anything remarkably spirited or anything remarkably unspirited. Seems I should've given them a 5 for a perfectly average performance?
Anyway - it's pretty hard to take any of this seriously until some sort of genuine criteria are assigned to Spirit scoring and it actually means something other than a woodenspooner's consolation prize...
PS the actual game score was something like 12-10 Bugs, and it could've gone either way...
Hello readers and the writers as well. I thought I would add my thinking behind 'the' spirit score.
In my mind a forfeit of a game is kind of like a forfeit of a spirit score. When you forfeit a game you get a 0 in the for and against. In the same way I think it should be a 0 for spirit. No game, no points, no spirit points.
The Dojo were really nice and apologetic about it and they did join us for a friendly and useful training session for both teams. Consequently I gave 2 points to value that effort.
Cheers
Mike
Moreton Bay Buggers
Stu,
If Heroes won by forfeit, most people wouldn't see it as 'harsh' for us to get GD 0, but fortunate to come away with a win.
Hate to use my team as an example like that, but hopefully it makes a point.
Bugs could have lost.
There is a scoring guideline that I'm pretty sure was used at wucc this year, and will probably be used in all future events by wfdf. It was produced jointly by wfdf and bula and is available at:
http://www.wfdf.org/rules/SOTG_v2010_EN.pdf
So basically we could just have a seasons worth of these sheets put into each team folder and voila no one is bickering anymore.
Personally think that forfeiting a game would/should end up with forfeit of any spirit for that game as well.. How can you demonstrate "spirit of the game" when no game has been played?
As an aside - pretty sure there were guidelines for spirit at worlds.. However these guides tend to be as arbitary as simply making up a number based on your gut feeling.. (and my memory may have have confused one event with another)
A more interesting part of this thread for my mind though is the discussion of whether the +15/-15 for against is fair to the rest of the competition. As stu's pointed out not giving the chance to build on the for and against penalises the team that hasn't had the chance to play a game. However awarding this split does actually penalise all other teams in the competition.
Going to "head to head" before goals for and against would delay the point at which for and against would come into play and help the situation but wouldn't remove the issue completely.
Could add another level in the case where team's tied on the ladder and then on head to head were then separated on the basis of "for and against points" between just those two teams.
Not a perfect solution either but could be a fairer option than the current one where the forfeit does give an advantage to the team who wins by forfeit?
Re: Spirit
Perhaps, if a team forfeits without reasonable prior warning to their opponents, they automatically receive 0, while their opponent (who showed up) receives no score for that game?
The team that showed up has not had a chance to demonstrate Spirit, good or bad, and so that game has no impact on their average for the season. The team that forfeits without warning has demonstrated a lack of respect for their opponent (one of the key elements of Spirit), and thus deserves to be penalised for the season.
Of course, as Steve has said, Spirit scoring remains purely a concept, and there is no actual penalty to the team. It really comes down to how much a team cares about how they play the game...
I agree with al on the within-teams for and against being the final separator.
It seems like we're overplanning for a theoretically unlikely scenario, but the recent even-ness of the comp makes it a pretty relevant question.
No game, no spirit score?
Okay - that's fine. Then give us a 0 for spirit. In fact if "no game happened" then it's impossible for us to get any other score! I assume that this logic applies to both teams (if no game happened then neither team can demonstrate any spirit), meaning both should get 0?
Anyway, I'd rather get 0 than some token piece of condescension. Stu if it's going to be the rule that teams get 0 Spirit for forfeits then please add this to the rules for future clarity.
Thanks Pete for the link to the Spirit guide - Stu there's no reason why we shouldn't be using this in the BPL right now.
And aL, yes there's always going to be an element of discretion in the assigning of Spirit scores, just as there is an element of discretion in any judgement call made during the game. At least if there's some sort of guideline for this then captains can have some sort of measure against which to discuss Spirit after the game.
JdR,
BPL doesn't currently follow the AFDA tournament rules because these are for tournaments and not leagues. The league is a very different situation as you are gauranteed to play everyone twice, which makes using the head to head rule very hard where you are going to get multiple ties. Also what do you do when the head to head is between two teams where one of them forfeited?
Stephen,
From your previous Dojo blog post and all of these comments, only Jules wanted to use a scoring system. I think players want to keep spirit scores subjective rather than ticking boxes.
Their isn't a SOTG trophy but the team that wins SOTG gets blagging rights and a token gift.
From your previous post you mention that there is no benefit to being spirited, absolutely, it's true in life and not just on the field, it comes down to how you and your team mates feel after the game, and what people think of you? You can't force people to be nice.
You need to read the BPL rules again; captains are obliged under the BPL rules to remove badly spirited players.
Dan,
I have no idea at what you are trying to get at here? Are you saying the resulting forfeited goal difference is based on those two teams that were meant to play?
All,
Currently the BPL rules are about 3 pages long, which is three pages longer than any other league rules that I know of. Yet there are still holes in the rules which I'm sure you can twist however you want (i.e. Stephen's idea of MBB getting a spirit score of 0!). It's a game of frisbee, use some common sense.
ha! finally some life is back in the blog. I love BPL!
Head to head between 2 teams that forfeited, easy just take the total points from the games between the 2 teams. Let's use an example (this is hypothetical)
Game 1:
MBB vs. Dojo: MBB win Dojo forfeit = MBB 3 Dojo 0
Game 2:
Dojo vs. MBB: Dojo win MBB lose
= MBB 1 Dojo 3
Therefore the total points head to head for the teams is
MBB 4 Dojo 3...a clear winner.
This is a reason why the forfeiting team get 0 pts.
There is one reason for putting +15pts on the team that doesn't forfeit, that is due to the fact there is a chance they could win the game by 15pts. Why penalise them for not having this chance. (Unlikely to happen but it IS possible).
As for using a spirit scoring system, funny how the greater community doesn't get to decide this and its done by the captains alone. As a previous captain of UQ I would have voted in favour of the systematic approach. Just to prevent people from whinging as much. Although that being said, I do enjoy the well mannered debate on this blog, quite a good distraction :)
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