It seems required for North American Ultimate internetters, bloggers and others to have a view on spirit of the game, cheating, use of observers and so forth.
Its been passionately and extensively written on.
Since we're getting more visits here at stately Brisbane Ultimate Blog mansion from "over there" (Hey there, and Happy Canada Day and/or Fourth of July), I figured I'd offer my main insight.
I've played a lot of field-team sport with referees, umpires and linespeople - over twenty seasons of soccer, three seasons of field hockey, half a dozen games of aussie rules, a season of netball, a season of cricket, five seasons of rugby league and three of seasons of basketball.
In all of these I experienced far more cheating than in seven years of unrefereed Ultimate.
I'll leave it at that.
13 comments:
SHIRTLESS BROCK! SHIRTLESS BROCK! Whaddawewant? SHIRTLESS BROCK!
SHIRTLESS SARAH! SHIRTLESS SARAH! Whaddawewant? SHIRTLESS SARAH!
or Bree.
I'm not too sure about this shirtless business.... but I do come from across the pond, have for a long time believed that ultimate would be a better game with refs.
Grassroots level- youth will have a slower learning curve in trying to sort out proper calls on their own.
High level competitive ultimate- player's determination to win often outweighs their commitment to spirit. It is often you see people on opposing teams that you know in advance will make calls in their favour, regardless of perspective. And will argue with conviction, and aggression to get the call in their favour. I have been blamed for this in the past, and do my best not to, but would be better off with an impartial 3rd party calling the shots. This type of 'all calls favour me' attitude is becoming more common, and would be eliminated with refs.
Finally, progression of the game. I feel that refs would legitamize the game and have it accepted in more international sporting events. ie The Olympics. As far as becoming professional goes, the sport demands money, from spectators, often from television. If ever this chain of events is going to begin to unfold, I think the spectators will be more passionately involved if they know that a ref is making the calls, and not the biased players themselves.
all that said... I love the game regardless.
my 2 cents.
JDR - I'm with you all the way on this, and can only suspect that my esteemed colleague "Mr Shower" (Hi Stefan) has suffered too long under the "win at all costs and get rich doing it" regime popularised by our friends who drive very large vehicles on the wrong side of the road.
Here's a question: What can you see in a game of Ultimate that you can't see in any other team sport? Answer: people taking responsibility for their own conduct. It's anarchy at work on the playing field - the Sex Pistols would definitely approve. Wiki it if you don't know what I mean.
And why the assumption that Ultimate needs to be brought to a conventional audience and marketplace? How much more drama would an audience get (and how much more pressure to make fair calls would the players be under) if every foul call could be forensically scrutinised in slow motion after the event? Players who made dodgy calls would rapidly get a poor reputation, which would reflect on their team, which would impact on sponsorships, etc...
But that's all assuming that a TV audience and big money deals is what we should all aspire to (and I'm sure many of us do).
Ignoring all that, the very fact that a bunch of intelligent adults (and some late adolescents like John Mac) can play a seriously competitive team sport without the oppressive sound of a ref's whistle and yet demonstrate (in the main) extraordinary fairness and mutual respect is inspirational. And I'd say this has a lot to do with the great camaraderie across the Ultimate community, both locally and much further afield.
So down with refs and up with responsible individuals enjoying the freedom of calling it as they see it!
If people don't like it they can make a new sport as far as I'm concerned, referees need to be paid and stuff, makes the game more expensive and as a student who struggles to find the money for the next goon sack I object to money. Plus the refs are going to be people that know the game and want to play.
That and I agree with JDR in that when I played rugby people could and would cheat all the time. In ultimate if you cheat it gets called and the disc goes back and everyone thinks you're a real a-hole!
Like most Strayins, I'm against refs for two reasons.
1) I grew up playing many different sports (AFL, basketball, soccer, among others). This, along with working in nightclubs for several years, has given me a severe aversion to whistles. I have to try very, very hard to resist the overwhelming urge to punch anyone with a whistle in the face with as much force as I can use. This is because of bad reffing - fouls that didn't happen being called, and fouls that do happen not being called. Players or refs...you're still going to get bad calls, but with refs there's no avenue for disputing said bad call.
2) Where are we going to get the refs? Ex-players? Good luck finding any that would want to.
Just came off a rant on ultitalk about just this kind of stuff, so I won't really go into it.
Refs are for failers.
Alright then....
copy.paste.rebut.
Sensei said: down with refs and up with responsible individuals enjoying the freedom of calling it as they see it!
In a perfect world yes, but I think the league numbers would suffer, if we had to exclude all of the irresponsible 'foul callers'. Yes it's better (in terms of taking responsibility) here than where I grew up playing, but even one irresponsible 'foul caller' can dramatically' affect the outcome of the game.
Tomsteve said: If people don't like it they can make a new sport as far as I'm concerned.
Good thing your concern has no bearing.
Simon said: Players or refs...you're still going to get bad calls, but with refs there's no avenue for disputing said bad call.
As a reiteration, with some players, there is no avenue for disputing bad calls, at least a referee removes any bias.
Gref wrote: Refs are for failers.
You prove a failure at spelling.
---------------
I've only played the game the way it is now, but I have spoken to some top ultimate players back home who played in "Major League Ultimate" test matches with ref's. These players were convinced that it sped the game up, reduced time spent arguing/disputing, and generally made for a better game in their opinion.
Many good points also made in favour of keeping it as is... notably the acquisition and cost of refs.
In my opinion it is certainly worth a try at the top levels of international ultimate. Not only do competitive biases get in the way, but even language barriers within disputes.
Don't get me wrong, I love the game as is, I just think it is worth a try.
I look forward to the onslaught of opposition to this my final post on the matter.
peace. love. and ultimate.
(still possible with refs)
having a ref would destory the spirit of the game because people wouldn't take the responsibility of fair play on for themselves as highly or at all.
If you take the spirit of the game, you take something away an important aspect that many people love. Spirit is what makes ultimate so fun, what ties the community together. I understand that refs might make the game a more balanced but refs don't see everything.
If a ref going to call a close strip or see all the way to the endzone and call a stradle? It's not unreasonable to assume the amount of bad calls would increase in such circumstances
I'm not saying this out of concern, there are still valid things you have failed to address such as where are we going to get these refs from and given the nature of the sport we'd really need a person down each sideline too.
And as for proffesionalism, I don't think a ref is going to make anyone want to watch more. I understand it'd be nice to see people making millions playing ultimate but its a long way off. If everyone on the field had a microphone the crowd would be able to hear what was going on like on rugby when you hear the ref making a call.
also saying you don't care about someone's opinion is not a reasonable basis to dismis it as invalid.
if that was too long and you didn't read it my main points were:
1/ It would depreciate the importance of spirit and likely reduce spirit itself.
2/ One ref would be inneffective in making calls without the aids of sideline referees and tv replays which
3/ Can't really be forseen in the near future as QUDA gets like 10k a year and pretty much everyone at a grandfinal is a frisbee player or family member anyway.
that said it's a growing sport and anything can happen. It'll come about if it needs to but right now its neither practical or nessecary.
Stef ...
Failer is a colloquialism, and does not have the same meaning as failure.
Failure implies that the person who fails did not have the means or opportunity to do better.
Failer implies that the person who fails is situationally placed to succeed, but fails regardless.
Don't pull out "You can't spell therefore your point is wrong" logic. It's deficient of anything resembling reason.
For the others, this is already being bashed around on ultitalk.com, if you are at all interested on hearing some broader views on the issue. Oh noes, more people's opinions!
I'm beginning to remember why I didn't bring this up here before ...
some of you may have enjoyed playing ultimate with me over the years.
i'd like to enjoy playing ultimate with many of you into the future.
i can guarantee that NONE of you would enjoy playing with me if spirit and personal responsibility was taken out of the game. "if the ref does not see it... it did not happen" mentality and "off the disc" work to reduce a players focus (yes that means wedgies and foot stomps etc) would reduce my popularity to below zero. i was effectively the "most hated" in the wide bay afl league (except by my team who i helped to premiership glory).
the pleasure i get from playing a sport where i am not required to be a tnuc is a major reason why i play, and i know that is true for many of us.
the honest competition for the disc (i will only get it if i am a better athlete and play smarter) that DOES NOT OCCUR in any other sport where the "get the disc by any means possible, as long as the ref does not call you on it" would alter this game beyond recognition. many of us would not be playing Ultimate as there are a vast range of other sports where that type of play can be found (and indeed, is actively encouraged). why would i play "cheating ultimate" when i could just play another "cheating sport" and excercise my ability to get "beyond the rules without being caught"????
main point
ref's = attempts to go beyond the rules without thoughts of personal responsibility.
my $0.02
MattA
PS - more shirtless business.
and for those of you that want proof of the fact that God is a woman, it lies in the fact that there is nothing funnier than a naked man running.
against refs. one point that hasnt been raised is if i dont call a foul on the mark because stall count is on 1 and i have a break throw will the ref call that and slow the game down?
all for observers, can put a stop to the one or 2 dodgey calls in a game while leaving the game to its own devices.
that said i find it much more fulfilling to win by being better than the other team not by making dodgey calls.
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